tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6371869226918137688.post1768185352869326807..comments2023-11-15T02:33:37.285-06:00Comments on A Traditional Catholic in Iowa: Mrs. Flubberback, Mr. Cummerbund, and Little Suzy SnodnoseAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6371869226918137688.post-35715494349888129362012-12-29T10:58:13.230-06:002012-12-29T10:58:13.230-06:00Hmm, well Andy I don't want to be in the same ...Hmm, well Andy I don't want to be in the same boat and be too proud to hear you and understand. I don't think you think the OF is invalid. I remember our last looonnngg discussion about this. Perhaps I should go back and read it over again. Maybe it would make more sense to me now. I just don't see how Calvary represented could ever lack anything. Maybe I need to have a better understanding of the vocabulary you are using. <br /><br />I am going to think on it a bit and reply back later. I am making my rounds in town, hopefully tonight or tomorrow I will be able to write out a bit more. I would be curious your take on it as I do respect your opinion.Estherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04989720628977771805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6371869226918137688.post-40605641051836809322012-12-29T10:11:42.664-06:002012-12-29T10:11:42.664-06:00Esther,
Deficiency falls with the discipline, not...Esther,<br /><br />Deficiency falls with the discipline, not the validity. You are arguing as if I am speaking of deficiency as a matter of validity, I am not; dUSt made the same mistake too, but was too proud to hear it out. I don't doubt the validity of the Novus Ordo, but it is not all that the Mass can be. That is in the TLM. If a Mass is illicit, then it is deficient. It is that simple. The same holds true for the TLM as much as the Novus Ordo, don't be mistaken.<br /><br />But...<br /><br />Those who adhere to the TLM are more precise and they value the licitness of the Mass almost as much as the validity. The letter of validity is found in the licitness of the Mass. Much the same as the "spirit of the Council" is found in the "letter of the Council." And that is a problem isn't it?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6371869226918137688.post-75715709251277811612012-12-29T09:38:33.223-06:002012-12-29T09:38:33.223-06:00I know what fraternal correction should be- snarky...I know what fraternal correction should be- snarky comments and dirty looks are not included in that. Yeah I made a bit of noise. I was trying to find where we were at in the Mass. If they really wanted to help me that would not be the way to go about. You know I am too sensitive, but some of that was uncalled for. As I reflect on this I realize a couple bad experiences don't justify writing something off. But I really knew I needed a nurturing place then what I found in the TLM community, even in the clergy. There is more I could say on the subject but perhaps I will save that for an email then to post this on a public blog. <br /><br />Maybe I do get to caught up in the precision of it all. I do try and worship God properly, but I fall short often, as we all do. <br /><br />As for deficient thing, I know you think it is, I do not. Calvary represented is never deficient. Estherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04989720628977771805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6371869226918137688.post-21183611877668462712012-12-29T06:36:58.615-06:002012-12-29T06:36:58.615-06:00Perhaps that is a difference in attitude, perhaps ...Perhaps that is a difference in attitude, perhaps that is a change in mentality. Fraternal correction is not judgment, but it is a help in avoiding a bad last judgment. Man is set to help man. It is a matter of perspective. If you see it as being judgment, you should turn back inward and ask yourself why am I upset with those helping me who know more than I?<br /><br />With regard to the TLM, here is what I would say, stop trying to be so precise. The precision belongs to the ministers. The worship is your own. Don't worry about the books, don't worry about the responses. Don't worry about what others think, until they offer to help you. The Mass isn't about how you participate, Esther, but why. If you adore and worship with your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole mind.<br /><br />Worship is about giving proper worship to God the Father. If something is deficient, then it is not proper. So, put the TLM on the backburner.<br /><br />What is the stresser? The Mass or those who assist at the Mass? If the Mass is worth it in the OF, then it certainly is worth it in the TLM.<br /><br />As a point of theology, it isn't that Calvary is present, but that Calvary is re-presented.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6371869226918137688.post-68950342259876611532012-12-29T00:18:59.930-06:002012-12-29T00:18:59.930-06:00I was meaning that more in jest. I do believe in k...I was meaning that more in jest. I do believe in kneeling and I do kneel at the times I am supposed to. I also believe the priest should be focused on the Mass and not the congregation. <br /><br />I take a little issue with the "fraternal correction"- fraternal correction or being judgmental. This is one of the main reasons for me staying away from the TLM now. I don't "get" the responses, proper stances at the proper time... and oh mercy some of the looks and snark comments. And I was going at it alone, it wasn't like I had someone to explain it to me and I certainly don't know Latin. The books were of little help. I spent too much time flipping to find where we were at. It just became a stresser that wasn't worth it, as God the Father is still worshiped in the Ordinary Form and Calvary is just as much present. I know you think it is deficient and all, but I still don't think Calvary ever is. Then with a few encounters with various clergy, I just threw the whole TLM on the back burner. You may remember, I really tried for a bit. I thought with my love of the liturgy I would love it. But it was this attitude of "fraternal correction" as you put that put such a sour taste in my mouth. <br /><br />I still love reverent liturgies. But there are reverent liturgy in the OF. Estherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04989720628977771805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6371869226918137688.post-87706285990194089262012-12-28T12:47:04.896-06:002012-12-28T12:47:04.896-06:00No Esther, it matters greatly, because the act of ...No Esther, it matters greatly, because the act of kneeling shows proper adoration and worship to Him Who Is; as He is presented to you. The most proper way to do this is by kneeling. However, if there is a valid reason why one cannot, then who cares. That is what I am getting at. Notice in my response to Father, I said, "There is usually a valid reason why, in the TLM someone is not kneeling, but that is of little consequence AND if it is a "willy nilly" reason, the faithful will usually take care of the faithful, in short, they will offer the fraternal correction (not so much in the Novus Ordo, though...curious)."<br /><br />So, if the reasoning is valid, then yes one should not kneel, but if the reasoning is not valid, the no. One should kneel. Fraternal correction, Esther; and validity.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6371869226918137688.post-61239649102260605312012-12-28T12:24:16.305-06:002012-12-28T12:24:16.305-06:00Soooo it shouldn't matter if they kneel for co...Soooo it shouldn't matter if they kneel for communion? ;)Estherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04989720628977771805noreply@blogger.com